Yesterday I bought into a craps table at the El Dorado (in Shreveport, LA), and quickly noticed that in addition to the usual 4-5-6-8-9-10 points, there were equally sized squares for 2-3-11-12 and no spaces for Don’t Pass and Don’t Come. With the exception of these changes, there was no indication that this game was in anyway different from traditional craps. (The little sign that posts odds and minmax bet was labeled “Craps No More”, but that was it). I had picked this table because it was much less crowded than the two traditional tables, so I decided to go ahead and play – but bet very conservatively. Even though I was up nicely, I left after the shooter crapped out when the point was 2 after having made the previous two points. Other details are posted on the El Dorado website (see below). It says something that craps players were avoiding this table. But maybe they, like me, are just fans of the traditional game and don’t like change?
Like many craps players (I assume), the only way I am going to do really well is if a shooter makes the points several times, and having 2-3-11-12 available as points would seem to significantly reduces the odds of this happening. Not to mention the odds on the Pass Line.
It appears that this game has been around since 2002, and a posting I found () calculated that this upped the house edge from 1.414% to 5.382%, but I would love the Wizards take on this.
So my questions are: How common is this game? Just how bad an idea is it to play it?
If the table is consistently less crowded than regular craps, it would seem to me that Craps No More could attract inexperienced players that may not even notice the difference. And the name “Craps No More” could indicate that The House was somehow doing the players “a favor”. This may all fall under the “If you walk into a Casino with no idea what you are doing, then too bad” heading, but it still bothered me a bit.
Craps No More as explained on the El Dorado website:
• Though very similar to traditional Craps, Craps No More has a few unique variations. The first difference you may notice is that there is no 'Don't Pass' or 'Don't Come.' In addition, your come-out points include the traditional 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, but also the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The rules of play are very simple - on a come-out roll, SEVEN WINS! Any other number rolls and it becomes your point! Then you continue to win as any number rolls until you make your point or until a seven rolls..
Aside from that, all the other standard rules apply. The game offers traditional 'Prop' bets, 'Hardways,' 'Come' bets with true odds, 'Place' bets, 'Buy' bets, and 'Lay' bets with the standard 5% vigorish (commission) charged.
New Odds Payoffs
Pass Line and Come Bets
2 & 12: Odds pay 6 to 1
3 & 11: Odds pay 3 to 1
100x Odds still apply - up to a $2,000 Maximum Bet
New Place Bets
2 & 12: Odds pay 11 to 2. Minimum bets are $6 (on a $5 table) and $10 (on a $10 table). Bets can be increased by $2 increments.
Example: $6 pays $33; $8 pays $44; and so on.
3 & 11: Odds pay 11 to 4. Minimum bets are $8 (on a $5 table) and $12 (on a $10 table). The bets can be increased by $4 increments.
Example: $8 pays $22; $12 pays $33; and so on.
'Extreme Outside' Place Bets - 2, 3, 11, 12

I've heard this game called 'Never Ever Craps'. The only table I can recall seeing in Las Vegas in the past year is at Vegas Club downtown but it was recently dropped to 2x odds and rarely open.

So how is this different from Crapless Craps, which has been around for years and is discussed on the Wizard of Odds site as just another gimmick game that should be avoided? Sounds as if it might be a rip-off of the older game.

Its - Possessive; It's - 'It is' / 'It has'; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - 'They are'

OK, I had never heard of Crapless Craps, and this would appear to the be the same game with a different name. Thanks for the help. The advice of, 'Avoid gimmicks' remains a good rule to follow.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

They still have Crapless Craps at the Las Vegas Club and Plaza in downtown LV. Only open during Fri/Sat normally, but not if there is a small crowd. Usually they are set as $10 tables which make it rough if you play reds. But overall, nice odds for the extreme outsides and fun fun fun. Don't mind the quick sucking of your wallet on cold cold stormy nights.

They also offer it at Sam's Town Shreveport, IIRC.
I play it every time I go to El Dorado, but I know it is a gimmick.
This last trip, I lost on the NC Craps, but did well on the traditional craps there and at Horseshoe.
I always get treated very well at El Dorado, which is why I keep coming back.

WoO Craps page has the following:
6 and 8: Place bet always better.
5 and 9: Place bet always better, unless commission on Buy is on win only.
4 and 10: Buy bet always better.
What's the norm for commission on Buy in Vegas? Are the mostly uniform? or depends on which casino?

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Vig up front ($1 minimum vig) -- vig returned if you ask for the bet back before the dice are thrown
Stratosphere (can combine vig -- eg buy the 4 for $10 and the 10 for $10 total $21 cost up front)
Jerry's Nugget (cannot combine vig)
Joker's Wild (do not know if you can combine vig - but doubt it)
Ellis Island (do not know if you can combine vig - but doubt it)
Automatic buy (EG: $10 pays $19, $15 pays $29) -- least hassle fastest way to do this
Silverton
Red Rock
Palace Station
<others may include Stations properties>
Buy starts at $5.00 with vig on the win (requires verbal request - not automatic - uses $0.25 chips) -- all the Boyd properties downtown -- Hawaiian's favorite
Main Street Station
California Casino
Fremont Casion
Vig on the win starting at $20 to $25 (depends on casino, but most are starting at $20):
Everywhere else
If you bet for a multiple of $20, the buy on the 5 and 9 with vig up front is the same, not worse. But in general the place bet is better because your vig is not rounded up in some cases. Also, if they round down, there may be a slight advantage at $25 and $50 buy bets on the 5 and 9. But NOBODY does it. Or VERY rarely anyway, and dealers and pit crews will likely complain if you ask them about it.

FWIW, check out the bubble craps machines. The rules will vary by property, but at the Plaza, 4Q and Binnion's the vig is charged on the win only. Of course these palces are also limited to 2X on odds.

Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW

Start out thinking of a PASS LINE bet...
A PLACE bet involves YOUR choice of a number rather than the dice's choice but YOU pay for that privilege by getting a lower payout on Place bets.
A BUY bet involves YOUR choice of a number rather than the dice's choice AND YOUR choice to be paid the true and correct odds on the bet, which of course they usually only willing to do for a bit more money referred to as a commission. The dealers have their way of handling the commission and the Box and the Eye in the Sky will know what is going on when they see extra money going out because the dealers mark the bet with a little lamer saying 'Buy'.
Physically a buy bet and a place bet are positioned in the same manner, the buy lamer just means if it wins pay him the correct odds since that is what he has purchased with his commission.

One easy way to think of it is this:
When you have vig on the win (most common in Vegas) a buy bet pay different depending on how much you bet it.
$5 buy pays $10 - $1 = $9 (same as place bet)
$10 buy pays $20 - $1 = $19
$15 buy pays $30 - $1 = $29
$20 buy pays $40 - $1 = $39
$25 buy pays $50 - $1 = $49
$30 buy pays $60 - $2 = $58
$35 buy pays $70 - $2 = $68
$40 buy pays $80 - $2 = $78
$45 buy pays $90 - $2 = $88
$50 buy pays $100-$2 = $98
$55 buy pays $110-$3 = $107
$60 buy pays $120-$3 = $117
$65 buy pays $130-$4 = $126
$70 buy pays $140-$4 = $136
$75 buy pays $150-$4 = $146
$80 buy pays $160-$4 = $156
$85 buy pays $170-$5 = $165
$90 buy pays $180-$5 = $175
$95 buy pays $190-$5 = $185
$100 buy pays $200-$5 = $195
To figure out larger sized bets, you divide your bet amount by $100 and look at the pay for n times the $100 ($195 per $100 bet) plus the pay for the remainder.
So a $150 buy bet would pay $195 + $98 = $293
If you're not getting vig on the win (less common) it's not as good of a deal, and vig on the win is most common in Vegas, so this is what you really want to know for the bargains.
You want to generally get paid as much as you can just before the vig goes up. So $25, $50, and multiples of $20 beyond that, meaning $60, $80 and $100. They are going to round up typically on $75 .. not down. But SOME places WILL charge a $3 vig on a $75 buy if you ask them first up front. Most dealers charge $4 vig for a $75 buy.
I hope this helps.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW